Book of Mormonisms

Did they really say THAT?

52 girls removed from FLDS compound in Texas

Posted by coventryrm on Wednesday, April 9, 2008

CPS: 3 more reasons to keep sect children in foster care

http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2008/05/27/cps_3_more_reasons_to_keep_sec.html

 

http://egan.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/23/faith-of-our-fathers/

http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,695267411,00.html

http://www.dfps.state.tx.us/About/News/2008/2008-04-25_news.asp

 

In light of the recent raid on the FLDS compound in Texas I felt this would be an appropriate time to post the following.

 

Joseph Smith and early LDS church leaders created this mess.  In fact, these polygamous compounds closely resemble exactly what Joseph and Brigham set up in Nauvoo and Salt Lake City.  In fact, it was communities like the one in Texas that were organized in places like Canada, Mexico, and the most desolate spots in the Western United States in an effort to continue the practice of polygamy even after the U.S. government began pursuing and prosecuting polygamists.  There is no doubt that the LDS Church actively fought the United States Congress as it passed legislation forbidding the practice of taking plural wives. 

 

Although I began questioning the basic tenets of basic Mormon beliefs over 10 years ago, I would still defend mainstream Mormons as a group that no longer practiced polygamy.  Such a defense seemed necessary because quite often, when someone thought of “Mormon” they also thought, “Polygamist.”  So, I would correct these individuals, and explain to them that the fundamentalist Mormon polygamist groups were offshoots and that you could not judge mainstream Mormonism by their practices.

 

It wasn’t until I started reading what Joseph Smith, and especially Brigham Young, had to say regarding polygamy that I began to question my former inclination to regard mainstream Mormons, who still revere these men, as completely unaffiliated with polygamous off-shoots such as the one in Texas.

In fact, one only has to read the Journal of Discourses to see the true irony of condemning groups for practicing precisely what is written in them.

 

Yet the average mainstream Mormon is disgusted and outraged by the acts of the polygamists in Texas.  The LDS church leaders are quick to remind the public that the current Mormon Church has no affiliation with these groups.  Warren Jeffs is called sick and deranged and the disgust from LDS church members is fierce and palpable towards him.  But where is the disgust for Joseph Smith and Brigham Young, the founders of this practice?  Mormons will often go to great lengths to defend these men, each who had several wives, some of whom were girls under the age of 16.  If you mention certain recorded facts, such as the young age of some of Brigham’s or Joseph’s wives, or the fact that Joseph married women that were already married to other men, then you are called an “anti=Mormon.” 

 

You can’t have it both ways.  If the acts of Warren Jeffs are similar to the acts of Joseph Smith then you must condemn them both.  

 

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33 Responses to “52 girls removed from FLDS compound in Texas”

  1. truth spreader said

    Smells like they’re burning the witches again. not to mention that it was legal in Utah for 14 yrs old to marry (with parental consent) until about 2 yrs ago when the lesbians, feminists and their enablers got attorney general mark “zeig heil” shurtleff to raise the age.

    oppressors always resort to making the religion of their enemies a crime. Isn’t that what happened in babylon under nebachadnezer? weren’t the jews almost exterminated because they refused to worhip the king ahead of god?

    if it was okay to marry a 14 year old two years ago then it is okay today–the only thing that has changed is that the lesbians and feminist managed to amend the marriage statute. well…it is time to amend it back.

  2. SkiUtah said

    Yes, this mess was caused by the Mormon church. The early leaders taught that if you believe Joseph Smith is a prophet of God, then you must believe in and practice polygamy. They taught that if polygamy is not true then Mormonism is not true.

    It’s no wonder these polygamists think that they are right and the LDS church is wrong.

    Elder Orson Pratt states (JD, 26 vols., 17:, p.225) “Now, after having said so much in relation to the reason why we practice polygamy, I want to say a few words in regard to the revelation on polygamy. God has told us Latter-day Saints that we shall be condemned if we do not enter into that principle; and yet I have heard now and then (I am very glad to say that only a few such instances have come under my notice,) a brother or a sister say, “I am a Latter-day Saints, but I do not believe in polygamy.” Oh, what an absurd expression! what an absurd idea! A person might as well say, “I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, but I do not believe in him.” One is just as consistent as the other. Or a person might as well say, “I believe in Mormonism, and in the revelations given through Joseph Smith, but I am not a polygamist, and do not believe in polygamy.” What an absurdity! If one portion of the doctrines of the Church is true, the whole of them are true. If the doctrine of polygamy, as revealed to the Latter-day Saints is not true,”

  3. steve said

    Good quote from Orson Pratt. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (Mormons) do not currently say they do not believe in polygamy. Mormons still do believe in polygamy…It is still in Church doctrine and scripture. If you read the Old Testament, you’ll discover that polygamy was a common practice among God’s chosed leaders, or prophets. Mormons choose to follow a living prophet today who adheres to the revelation of 1891 that the practice of polygamy was no longer in force. Thus Mormons do not practice polygamy today, choosing to have one spouse (wife) instead and obeying the laws of the land. It’s not a secret and you really haven’t let any cats out of the bag with the Orson Pratt quote. Even if Mormons started practicing polygamy again one day, the marriage of underage girls would not be condoned or authorized and the marriages would need to be binding and legal by the law of the land. The women entering into these marriages would also need to agree to it wholeheartly of their own volition.

  4. deaconj123 said

    You can still get married in Utah at 15 years of age (with restrictions):

    http://www.utcourts.gov/howto/marriage

    So it’s illegal to marry 14 year olds in Utah. Joseph Smith was married to at least one girl that was 14 when he married them (he was 37). Of course, JS said that God said it was okay to do that (D&C 132:62-63):

    “And if Joseph Smith have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore he is justified for they are given unto him to multiply and replenish the earth, according to my commandment, and to fulfil the promise which was given by my Father before the foundation of the world, and for their exaltation in the eternal worlds, that they may bear the souls of men; for herein is the work of my Father continued, that he may be glorified.”

  5. Bishop Rick said

    truth spreader,

    I might say “if it was wrong then, it is wrong now”…good thing they fixed that broken law.

  6. truth spreader

    Its never ok for a sick demented old religious nutter to marry a 14 year old girl.
    Its a disgrace and I wouldn’t shed a tear if they got a javelin stuck through their heart .

  7. blazeheliski said

    The average age of a girl to get married in Niger is 13. The average age of girls in the Sudan to get married was 10 until just recently. Now it is 14. In Ethiopia and some areas of West Africa, some girls get married as early as age 7. A 1998 survey in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh found that nearly 14 per cent of girls were married between the ages of l0 and 14.

    It is not just a religious thing, in some cases it is a cultural thing. I am not supporting early marriages for girls. I just wanted to put a little perspective on the whole thing. The way we Americans see things is not always the way the world sees things.

  8. coventryrm said

    I just looked up some stats and it had niger at Men at 23.9 and women at 17.6 where are you getting your information?

    http://www.dataranking.com/country.cgi?LG=e&CO=160

    Most the research I have found is even when the ages are young for a given country it is still not 40 and 50 year old men and 15 16 year old girls it is more consistent with my niger stat the age avg age diference seems is not so extreme 5 – 10 years apart the site listed above also shows Sudan – women 22.7 and men 29

  9. blazeheliski said

    I got my Niger stats from this site

    http://ipsnews.net/africa/interna.asp?idnews=26399

    Sudan stats from this site

    I got Sudan stats from the middle of this page where it talks about Bhahkita.

    http://www.unicef.ca/portal/SmartDefault.aspx?at=1377

    You are correct that a lot of times the difference is not large but in a number of countries it still is. Here are a few quotes from the website listed below.
    “Not only do many females marry while they are still legally children, but these girls often marry men who are considerably older. (Males are generally not encouraged to marry while they are still adolescents; thus, males, unlike females, rarely marry before reaching adulthood.)1”

    and

    “Research from 16 countries in Sub-Saharan Africa indicates that the husbands of 15-19 year old girls are, on average, at least 10 years older than their wives. 14”

    from this site http://wg-usa.org/blog/?cat=14

    So according to this site, the minimum age difference in these 16 countries is at least 10 years older but most are even older.

    I am not defending this practice, or the polygamists that did it. That is why there are websites talking about it and how wrong it is. I am just pointing out that the practice is not as uncommon as you might think. It generally occurs in communities and cultures where women have very little power or rights.

  10. coventryrm said

    Even if the ages you claim are actual (UNICEF seems to have data that is closer to what you posted) it is groups like UNICEF that are working to protect people from such realities so I am not sure that the “Worldview” at large is any less disgusted then our “American” view is, I feel I can safely say that your statement

    “The way we Americans see things is not always the way the world sees things.”

    Is completely irrelevant as it is the worldview at large that view such acts has heinous and wrong there are acitivists worldwide trying to stop and make people around the world aware of situations that clearly go against the most basics of humanity and violate and abuse innocent victims. However let’s assume that it is just our American view that finds this act appalling I am still not sure what your point really is? There is bad shit happening in other places so don’t be so judgmental when it happens here?

  11. blazeheliski said

    My only point is that some tribes and cultures have been doing this longer than we have been a country. Is it right for us to impose our cultural beliefs on them?

    There are some tribes that wear little or no clothing. Is it right for us to tell them to wear clothing also?

    Some tribes do skin scarring on adolescent boys as a right of passage. They cut the boys thousands of times so that their skin will scar, and their skin will look like a crocodile – an animal they worship. In this country that would be considered child abuse. Right or wrong?

    What about tribes that force girls to enlongate their necks deforming the girls by our Western standards? Right or wrong? What about Asian cultures that forced girls to bind their feet causing their feet to be permanently deformed? Right or wrong? And back to cultures and tribes that force girls to marry early. Right or wrong?

    Personally, I think they are wrong, but there are a ton of history books out there talking about how us “high-and-mighty” Westerners swooped in, and brought the “savage” natives clothing, laws and rules, religion, and all the other wonders of “advanced” civilization. Right or wrong?

  12. SkiUtah said

    Yeah, where does one draw the line? What about genocide, do we step in and impose our values and and stop people from murding each other, or just let them work it out amonst themselves because they’ve been doing it for centuries?

    I’m not sure where the line is. There certainly has been a long history of humans wrongly imposing their value systems on other sets of humans.

    And this line of thinking is further exacerbated by religious groups stating “our values are the correct ones because God told us”, which in turn fosters a culture of “we”re justified in doing anything to get you to believe in our values because God told us we’re right and you’re wrong.”

  13. coventryrm said

    I think we have a responsibility to educate people and convince and reason with them to evolve and discard practices that cause pain and suffering to simply satisfy an ancient right or superstition. Certainly atrocities like the cases of genocide should be dealt with and stopped by force if needed.

    “Personally, I think they are wrong, but there are a ton of history books out there talking about how us “high-and-mighty” Westerners swooped in, and brought the “savage” natives clothing, laws and rules, religion, and all the other wonders of “advanced” civilization. Right or wrong?

    I think you are saying that if they are causing pain and suffering to innocent people that it is wrong, however where do you draw the line? That is one of the dilemmas I have with the Christian ideal, in answer to your question regarding right or wrong to impose “advanced” civilization, I think it is wrong to just impose another superstition that might seem to be kinder and gentler on the surface but still potentially has all the mental and emotional abusive components.

    I don’t think that it is all that difficult to reason through and realize what we should be trying to change and what we should be opposed to, quite simply beliefs or practices that cause pain and suffering or that are proven to be physically, emotionally or mentally damaging. This reasoning should be applied uniformly and a moral society should actively work within acceptable means to work towards putting an end to damage to being inflicted on anyone in the name of religious ritual and or cultural right.

  14. blazeheliski said

    I agree – where do we draw the line? A topic like this makes me have more questions than answers.

    In the case of the Mormon polygamists, the answers seem pretty clear. I was mainly extending the discussion to encompass stuff that is seen around the world.

  15. IowaChristian said

    Put aside the personal dislikes of the polygamy issue. What scares me is the fact that with one anomynous phone call anyone with children can be arrested, thier child ripped from the home, seperated from their mother, forced into a room and sexually examined by a strange doctor without their mother there and then you have to prove your innocence. Can you imagine the horror of being put in stirrups and examined by a stranger at 5 to 16 years old? Boy or girl. How tense were you women the first PAP test you had and that was with parental support. I’m 44 and still don’t care much for a prostate exam. What the CPS did to those children was no better than rape. If those kids hadn’t been sexually abused, they are now. I know of a 14 year old girl locally that just had a baby, sholud CPS take the whole town’s children into custody to protect them. She kept her baby and the state paid for the delivery and will do all that is necessary to keep the two together. Funny huh.
    What this comes down to is control. A socialist government dictating religious belief. We have thousands of illigitamate children with serial polygamists in this country. Men who have several children with different women just to dump them and go on to the next. Go to any Wal-mart for proof. The difference is the men of the FLDS actually give a rip about their families and they are Christian. As I see it Christianity is the crime. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t believe in polygamy, but if we prosecute these men we, as a nation, need to prosecute every man that has children with more than one woman. My vows were to my Christian God and my wife, not my state. Until death due us part, not I’m tired your butt, get out. It’s okay. The state said it was. Next.
    I’ve heard comments about the kind of clothes and hairstyles these people have. How ridiculous? I thought we lived in an intelligent, enlightend society, where I must accept what I find repulsive in America or be labeled with a list of vulgarities because of my personal beliefs. But let a white Christian man proffess his love of wives and children and it’s time to prosecute.
    In closing I heard of a book that was written in the 90’s by the smartest woman in America. It was called “It Takes a Village”, where everyone from the highest enlightend educator to the dog catcher was important to the development of the child. I never read any passages about the need of a good Dad.

  16. deaconj123 said

    I think the CPS was bothered by the possibility that there were old men having sex with girls under the age of 17.

    Where are all of these old FLDS fathers? Are they showing up to court to claim their wives and children?

  17. IowaChristian said

    Would you show up with the knowledge of definant imprisonment? And , we only are told what the media wishes us to know. If it isn’t dirty laundry, it isn’t news worthy.

  18. SkiUtah said

    These 40+ year old guys should definitely be imprisoned for having sex with 14 year old girls (regardless of what is reported in the media).

  19. coventryrm said

    “The difference is the men of the FLDS actually give a rip about their families and they are Christian.”

    So the rapist that kidnaps and keeps his victim captive through mind control and isolation is somehow better than the Man that has consensual sex with a woman and a illegitimate child happens to be the result. It has nothing to do religious persecution it has to do with going after pedophiles and anyone that thinks for one minute invoking religious right to justify the abuse of children is just downright reprehensible.

    In the book “Stolen Innocence” she talks about how people like you and the media would jump on this bandwagon about rights and we should just leave them alone, which in the end just allowed Warren Jeffs and the like to continue their victimizing of her and others. I doubt you or the backlash against the state of Texas is actually doing any of these poor children any favors. VERY SAD!

  20. IowaChristian said

    “Stolen Innocence”. One persons renderings. Have you been in a situation such as this. I haven’t. Mind control. I attended a party this last week where a pre18 year old girl offered her avaialabilty to me. I politely declined. The next man wasn’t as compasionate. Was she mind control, abused by a former male friend or just horny. When the media reports a sensationalized story like this it’s like what did the tornado sound like. I would like to think these alledged pedophiles, as you put it, would have their day in court and persumed innocent until proven guilty. But it doesn’t matter now, they have been tried and condemned by public opinion. I have never in any context seen documentation that any of these girls were 14 years old. The news report was made and the lynch mob established instantly. Hearsay by any standard. In the state of Iowa a parent can sign away their 16 year old daughter to matromny to any age man legally. Furthermore 14 year old girls have sex and babies, signed away, in a cult or by rape and incest, everyday. Some of these are reprehensable crimes, but until the facts are duely represented how is it so easy to comdemn?
    Peolpe like me are afraid. Innocent men are accused every day of such crimes. Disgruntled teen step daughters point a vindictive finger and the problem has just started. Once acused people like you have no patience to convict and punish, innocent or not.
    If a Stalinist state, where at any time the controling interests of the state can confiscate anything from children to property by nothing more than a single phone call is what you think is justice, then we as a society are doomed. If that is the case I can only hope that you are not in charge. If Warren Jeffs is such a hedonistic terror, then why are the women one this “pedophile cult” willing to work so hard to regain their children and return to their simple life. Wouldn’t one think that they would welcme the state to release them from their bonds and testify against their husbands. I haven’t read that in you dear media.
    Oone last point, In my writings I didn’t say that this was a religious right. I simply stated that these people were “Christian”. Once again, to quick to persecute, VERY SAD

  21. coventryrm said

    “In the state of Iowa a parent can sign away their 16 year old daughter to matromny to any age man legally.”

    Okay you have convinced me ….. Old men fucking young girls is okay with parental consent. sheeesh what was I thinking!

  22. skiutah said

    >>Wouldn’t one think that they would welcome the state to release >>them from their bonds and testify against their husbands.

    Some of these girls are forced into marriage as soon as they reach puberty. By the time they are 21 they have 5 kids, are uneducated, and are completely brainwashed. They feel like there is no way out of the FLDS cult. Some make it out, most don’t. And the cycle repeats.

    Regardless, old guys having sex with young 13, 14, 15 year old girls is not right (even if the girl’s parents agree to it).

  23. blazeheliski said

    Here is an article about polygomy in a different country and a different religion………

    Polygamy

    Here is a quote from the article……

    “This is in our religion and nobody can force us to do anything against our religion,” he said. “If the laws of the country conflict with Islamic law, if one goes against the other, then I am going to follow Islamic law, simple as that.”

  24. IowaChristian said

    I’ve never condoned polgamy or sex with underaged girls in any of my writing. I just find it difficult to condemn as easily as you. 60 of these pedophiles, as you called them are monogamas according to court reports. Innocent families swept up because of where they lived and who they associated with. If someone in your church were to be charged with a crime, should you also be automatically assumed guilty. Without information unjust accusations are not only childish, but demeaning and revealing of your own character. Foul language also shows a shallow intellectual state.
    I’m done for now because my old Grandaddy always told me “You can’t teach a pig to sing. It watses your time and annoys the pig”.

  25. coventryrm said

    I am curious what you mean by “People like you”

    “Peolpe like me are afraid. Innocent men are accused every day of such crimes. ”

    I have a vindictive ex wife who tried that tactic, the system worked, and I have no problem of keeping Children out of potential or percieved harm until you sort out the facts. I would rather see error in protecting the children than in protecting a predator.

    They will all have their day in court the issues is not have I found them guilty, but rather do I think the Texas authorities acted in good faith and from what they saw in the compound they felt compelled to protect innocent children. I don’t fault them for that at all nor think it is even close to a Stalinist act.

    What I condemn is predators preying upon children – I have no problem with that quick condemnation.

    I am shocked that using graphic language to illustrate what was going in the FLDS compound would offend you, BUT it seems to have struck a cord.

    BTW

    “Pigs are smarter than any other domestic animal. Their ability to solve problems, like the pig I.Q. test on THE JOY OF PIGS, is well-documented” http://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/pigs/smart.html

    Thanks for the compliment!

  26. SkiUtah said

    That article on polygamy and Islam was interesting. The Islamic guys are saying God says it’s okay to commit adultery as long as you get married by the local imam. The FDLS men are similarly saying that God is telling them it’s okay to be pedophiles as long as sanctioned by the local bishop.

    There are some interesting parallels between Islam and early LDS Mormonism, or Mohammad and Joseph Smith:
    – Both visited by angels, had revelations, were told no true religions existed on earth, God called them to restore the only true religion
    – Both said that God said polygamy was okay
    – Uneducated guys who were not capable of writing a book; however Mohammad produced the Quoran, and Joseph Smith wrote the Book of Mormon
    – Both were persecuted for their teachings

  27. coventryrm said

    The logic and arguments of Iowachristian, I think it is worth taking a closer look at some of the logic and arguments he presented.

    “I attended a party this last week where a pre18 year old girl offered her avaialabilty to me. I politely declined. The next man wasn’t as compasionate. Was she mind control, abused by a former male friend or just horny.”

    There is no correlation between the two. You don’t know the background of this girl I really don’t see the connection. Now if at the party there were mostly men over the age of 21 and many under aged girls there being offered and supplied alcohol we would have a closer comparison, and then yes if the police showed up ALL over aged men should be arrested and the under aged girls taken to safety and interviewed.

    “If someone in your church were to be charged with a crime, should you also be automatically assumed guilty.”

    This is quite a stretch and spin and once again a gross miss representation of what actually happened or happens within our system. Bishops and Priests and other religious Men have been accused and arrested for abuse and rape without implicating their congregations, neighbors or friends, however if their congregations neighbors or friends willingly participated or were present during such abuse then arresting and charging them as well would be justifiable and appropriate.

    “I’ve never condoned polgamy or sex with underaged girls in any of my writing. “

    But yet you are arguing in defense of people that have been accused of doing just that.

    “automatically assumed guilty” I think you are confusing arrests, investigations and protecting victims as the same as a conviction without a trial. The alternative would be to not arrest criminals or protect the victims from such criminals until they have been tried and found guilty. Thankfully that is not how our system works so why should it be any different just because someone claims religious right.

    “Furthermore 14 year old girls have sex and babies, signed away, in a cult or by rape and incest, everyday. Some of these are reprehensable crimes, but until the facts are duely represented how is it so easy to comdemn?”

    Again the offender in such cases are arrested to await trial and the victims protected and interviewed.

    “In the state of Iowa a parent can sign away their 16 year old daughter to matromny to any age man legally.” Hopefully the moral and ethical people of Iowa will work to have this changed.

    “I know of a 14 year old girl locally that just had a baby, sholud CPS take the whole town’s children into custody to protect them. She kept her baby and the state paid for the delivery and will do all that is necessary to keep the two together. Funny huh.”

    Once again there is no correlation here, it seems that most your logic hinges on two wrongs make a right since you are insinuating that the state helping out this 14 year old and her child is wrong. The logic here defies any sense of reason and yet another ridiculous comparison that has not an ounce of merit.

    If these are the best arguments, examples and comparisons that can be made in defense of the FLDS and what they were doing in Texas then it is pretty obvious it was a good thing when that compound was raided and those children were taken into very much needed “PROTECTIVE CUSTODY”

  28. coventryrm said

    CPS: 3 more reasons to keep sect children in foster care

    http://www.statesman.com/blogs/content/shared-gen/blogs/austin/politics/entries/2008/05/27/cps_3_more_reasons_to_keep_sec.html

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/23/flds.appeals/

  29. IowaChristian said

    Continue your witch hunt. I’m just glad i still live in a free country. Maybe you are right and I am just a lost, duluded soul. Oh, and by the way , I am a pig farmer and pigs are canabils. Good night.

  30. coventryrm said

    I just have to wonder why you would personalize this issue so much.

    I did some quick research and found that pigs by nature are not cannibals and it has been found to be more a result of poor diet or living conditions here is one sample of the many articles on the subject.

    “Pigs are not cannibals. When they start to display cannibalism, the normal question industry should be asking is why are pigs behaving abnormally. The organic movement and animal liberation movement has raised the question and found the answer in the violent methods of factory farming. In humane farming pigs have been liberated and allowed to roam and roll in the mud. “

  31. blazeheliski said

    Hmmmmmmmmmm – bacon……..(ala Homer Simpson)

  32. coventryrm said

    “duluded ” “canabils” “Monogamas” I am a bit suspicious of Iowa Christian as he seems to sound out words very similar to Ditchu could they be one in the same?

  33. IowaChristian

    You are neither a ‘Christian’ nor come close to one….

    You sound like a typical LDS trying to justify your early leaders sick behaviour ….

    Warren Jeffs has shown us exactly what Joseph Smith was like and many of the others like Orson Pratt , Orson Hyde . Lorenzo Snow etc and all the rest of those Sick Cultists.

    You won’t find any sympathetic ears to your nonsense except amongst other deluded Mormons and FLDS of course.

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